Here's an idea I posted on VN boards for an easy way to fix, once and for all, realm imbalances in RvR.
http://vnboards.ign.com/devon_cluster/b ... 5458122/p1
Basically, you would allow realm defectors.
Give everyone 1 defector character slot per server upon reaching level 50 with another character on the account. In the character creation/login screen, you'd have a new button to roll a defector class. When you click it, it brings up a selection box for the other 2 realms.
You pick a realm, and go into character generation options for that realm's characters. You then create and roll a character (for your realm), from one of the other realm choices, and presto - Midgard Bainshee, Midgard Friar, Albion Animist, etc.
The idea was for every account with a lvl 50 on it to be able to roll anything.
Then each realm would be on an equal footing with each other realm from a class standpoint. Loot tables and RoG items are already in the game set up for it, all that would be necessary is opening up the RoG tables to allow items from all 3 realms to drop everywhere.
The biggest problem with "balance" is you can never have balance so long as one realm has access to tools the other 2 realms do not have. Separate but equal is just too hard to levelize, and then there's still always going to be the perception that these guys get classes that mesh better or have better abilities than we do, etc. Allowing a defector slot would correct that problem, equalize the playing field for all 3 realms class-wise, and would add another level of challenge to RvR.
The thread's on VN - you guys can follow it there, but I've left Mythic feedback on it at the herald.
Simple Realm Balance Idea (RvR)
Moderator: Tribal Council
-
Blodsteinn
- Axe of Siggurd
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:29 am
Simple Realm Balance Idea (RvR)
The "original" Cicero
Now: Blodsteinn/Blods/Kwesatz/Cicc/Argort/Poppado.
Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan.
Now: Blodsteinn/Blods/Kwesatz/Cicc/Argort/Poppado.
Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan.
-
Blodsteinn
- Axe of Siggurd
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:29 am
I'll trade hibs and albs shammie bots in exchange for sorcerers, eldritches, bainshees, heretics, animists, theurgists, scouts, etc.
The final submitted version of that post to Mythic is here:
====================================================================
Class Balance Between Realms: v2 with initial justification
-----------------------------------------------------------
Section 1: Presentation and Problem Identification/Proposal
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hello, I recently proposed the idea of allowing 1 "realm defector" slot per account per cluster per server where a level 50 character already exists for your consideration.
I wanted to expound on that concept and idea a bit more.
The idea is simply to have 1 "defector" character slot available on any server where a player has a level 50 character, in the same realm the player has the other character. If slot numbers are an issue - perhaps the stipulation could be that the defector slot "overlay" the primary character slot (similar to how Pendragon "overlays" slots in character transfers) In this manner it would force players to be willing to truly give something up before making their defector.
The defector creation system would be, in a nutshell, click on the "defector" button in character generation, and then select a realm. The realm selections would be from either of the other 2 realms. After realm is selected, the character creation screen goes to that realms creation menu system for the player to create a new character "in their home realm" - from the different realm. This new character would belong to the home realm, but be any class/race combo from the second realm. Only 1 defector would be allowed per server, and only if the player had a level 50 on that server. Alternately, just replacing a current 50 may be a good workaround, but may be subject to customer-service issues in the case of accidental "little brothers" or account sharing, or whatever. Perhaps a command in-game, verified by customer service like the account split option, but that may be too much trouble vs. just adding a new slot.
In this proposal, my Primary goal was, and is, to balance the three realms against one another equally. I feel the current methodology of having separate classes and abilities available only to one realm or another intrinsically does not work in a head-to-head environment. The "separate but equal" concept has been tried and tested and found wanting. No matter how "close" it may come, it simply will not be equal, and the player perception of the "grass is greener" will always exist for class options in other realms, and in some cases, lower and lessen overall player morale.
My secondary goal was to address the current system where an adjustment, or "nerf" to one class can be perceived as a major weakness and problem, and unfair in comparison with the other 2 classes. Using this methodology, much like the class options on Gaheris and Mordred, nerfing any one class will not be an impact to only one realm, but be an equal change across the board. It will still be to a greater extent in the home realm, simply because of the greater prevalance of certain classes in any realm, but any class adjustments will be reflected in all realms, thereby again, ensuring balance.
My third goal in this, is probably the least visible, but potentially the most profound. Player interaction and community building/stabilization. For any MMORPG to thrive, the community has to have time to grow together and create real human interaction and friendship via the game medium on a level beyond the characters they play. With the class options in DAoC, there should be at least one specific class that every player can just "associate" with at a personal level. This avatar just feels right to that player. However, the problem arises when that class is one in a different realm from the player's community. He may feel drawn to a different realm to try it out, and/or have guilt associated with that, all of which lessen the play experience for those individuals. Alternatively, with ongoing class adjustments there are other players that may like the patch notes associated with any given class and want to play it, and abandon thier realm to do so to try something out, and this in effect goes back to the grass is greener complex, but on a deeper level, because it fragments the inter-player community for the realm, and is not condusive to true community development on a personal level, so entire populations may ebb and flow, which is bad for the stability of the realms overall, and I feel eventually contributes to player loss. Without a strong community to hold players longer, the overall game suffers, and without realm balance, we (the players) cannot stabilize the communities.
This proposal to allow defector characters from either of the other 2 realms a slot in the player's home realm will, by definition, result in absolute balance between the classes of the realm, and will shift the game from (or from the perception of), which realm gets the best tools on any given patch to a game where all the tools available to each realm are the same, and it's a game of player skill and competitiveness with everyone having access to the same tools and abilities to accomplish it. Inter-class adjustments will still need to be addressed from time to time, but no longer will an adjustment to one class only affect one realm's capabilities vs the other 2, class adjustments would be made to address class-viability vs. other existing classes with no, or limited impact on overall realm capabilities vs. the other realms.
As the game exists now, I believe players in any given realm feel that the other realm gets tools and capabilities they cannot easily counter or reproduce themselves, and morale suffers because of it. I think it's important on a community level for the perception within the game to shift more to an equal footing based on a player's playskill where everyone has the same chance and same class availability.
This idea would take nothing away from any realm, and would not require any adjustments to any class, but would add a new level of flavor and options to established players, while balancing the realms against one another in RvR combat. I feel the concept of 3 realms is very important to the game, and I enjoy the RvR aspects of DAoC, especially when coupled with the PvE "safe" areas to just go and have fun with friends without the constant threat of harassment. I also like that in DAoC you cannot verbally harass the other realms you come into contact with. To me, all of these are the greatest tenants of DAoC and why it's such a fun game to play and enjoy. I do like the idea that on Mordred players can choose from any realm, but I think think the fundamental lack of realms or safety, along with the harassment aspects are a MAJOR turn-off for most people, and that is why Mordred didn't work. There has to be a balance between RvR and PvE, and in the standard servers, there also needs to be an absolute balance in RvR as well. I see this as being a fundamental and profound difference from what's been done in the game thusfar. Realm inter-balance while maintaining realm distinctions.
Section II: High Level Obstacles
--------------------------------
The biggest obstacles I see would be in the form of quest re-assignments for the defector classes in different realms.
Trainers would be the single-biggest thing. But using Midgard as an example, my idea would involve something like 2 "tunnel areas" in the Vale of Mularn, 1 containing Hibernian class trainers and merchants, and another Midgard. These trainers would cover all the base and specialized classes, and be a "one-stop shopping" area for foreign realm sympathizers. Located nearby the Aegirhamn portal, this underground area could be populated with some other NPC "refugees" and perhaps a non-useable "display-only" portal could exist supposedly leading back to the home realm where they all come from.
Defector characters could start in this portal area at level 1 of their base class. Since this character type option is only available as a "reward class" for players who already have level 50 characters, it should not be a problem if they don't start right in the "killing field" area, and this method would add more of an immersive feel to the concept.
The majority of quests could be simplified considerably by simply the allowance that "you're not in your home realm - we don't have that here", especially if the RoG item tables were expanded to include all 3 realm type drops. It would be difficult at first, but perhaps the RoG tables could be addressed quickly and easily a few days ahead of time to give items time to enter the game. However, these are realm defectors, life shouldn't be a cake-walk for them - especially early on, and with NPC vendor merchants in their refugee tunnels, and player-craftable items, the only things missing would be specific mob drops and quest gear, which could be added from other realms as allowable and specific items could be added to drop tables of equivalent mobs in all realms.
Things like epic quest armors could probably be done easily enough by allowing the classes to use existing epic quests for their realms and rewarding their class the correct quest armor just as anyone else.
This would involve programming time, but I see it as a very creative and innovative way to completely address class imbalances issues and perception realm to realm, while giving long-time players new options for more varied play in their existing player community, and hopefully taking a big step to strengthen player-community cohesion as a whole.
Thank you,
The final submitted version of that post to Mythic is here:
====================================================================
Class Balance Between Realms: v2 with initial justification
-----------------------------------------------------------
Section 1: Presentation and Problem Identification/Proposal
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hello, I recently proposed the idea of allowing 1 "realm defector" slot per account per cluster per server where a level 50 character already exists for your consideration.
I wanted to expound on that concept and idea a bit more.
The idea is simply to have 1 "defector" character slot available on any server where a player has a level 50 character, in the same realm the player has the other character. If slot numbers are an issue - perhaps the stipulation could be that the defector slot "overlay" the primary character slot (similar to how Pendragon "overlays" slots in character transfers) In this manner it would force players to be willing to truly give something up before making their defector.
The defector creation system would be, in a nutshell, click on the "defector" button in character generation, and then select a realm. The realm selections would be from either of the other 2 realms. After realm is selected, the character creation screen goes to that realms creation menu system for the player to create a new character "in their home realm" - from the different realm. This new character would belong to the home realm, but be any class/race combo from the second realm. Only 1 defector would be allowed per server, and only if the player had a level 50 on that server. Alternately, just replacing a current 50 may be a good workaround, but may be subject to customer-service issues in the case of accidental "little brothers" or account sharing, or whatever. Perhaps a command in-game, verified by customer service like the account split option, but that may be too much trouble vs. just adding a new slot.
In this proposal, my Primary goal was, and is, to balance the three realms against one another equally. I feel the current methodology of having separate classes and abilities available only to one realm or another intrinsically does not work in a head-to-head environment. The "separate but equal" concept has been tried and tested and found wanting. No matter how "close" it may come, it simply will not be equal, and the player perception of the "grass is greener" will always exist for class options in other realms, and in some cases, lower and lessen overall player morale.
My secondary goal was to address the current system where an adjustment, or "nerf" to one class can be perceived as a major weakness and problem, and unfair in comparison with the other 2 classes. Using this methodology, much like the class options on Gaheris and Mordred, nerfing any one class will not be an impact to only one realm, but be an equal change across the board. It will still be to a greater extent in the home realm, simply because of the greater prevalance of certain classes in any realm, but any class adjustments will be reflected in all realms, thereby again, ensuring balance.
My third goal in this, is probably the least visible, but potentially the most profound. Player interaction and community building/stabilization. For any MMORPG to thrive, the community has to have time to grow together and create real human interaction and friendship via the game medium on a level beyond the characters they play. With the class options in DAoC, there should be at least one specific class that every player can just "associate" with at a personal level. This avatar just feels right to that player. However, the problem arises when that class is one in a different realm from the player's community. He may feel drawn to a different realm to try it out, and/or have guilt associated with that, all of which lessen the play experience for those individuals. Alternatively, with ongoing class adjustments there are other players that may like the patch notes associated with any given class and want to play it, and abandon thier realm to do so to try something out, and this in effect goes back to the grass is greener complex, but on a deeper level, because it fragments the inter-player community for the realm, and is not condusive to true community development on a personal level, so entire populations may ebb and flow, which is bad for the stability of the realms overall, and I feel eventually contributes to player loss. Without a strong community to hold players longer, the overall game suffers, and without realm balance, we (the players) cannot stabilize the communities.
This proposal to allow defector characters from either of the other 2 realms a slot in the player's home realm will, by definition, result in absolute balance between the classes of the realm, and will shift the game from (or from the perception of), which realm gets the best tools on any given patch to a game where all the tools available to each realm are the same, and it's a game of player skill and competitiveness with everyone having access to the same tools and abilities to accomplish it. Inter-class adjustments will still need to be addressed from time to time, but no longer will an adjustment to one class only affect one realm's capabilities vs the other 2, class adjustments would be made to address class-viability vs. other existing classes with no, or limited impact on overall realm capabilities vs. the other realms.
As the game exists now, I believe players in any given realm feel that the other realm gets tools and capabilities they cannot easily counter or reproduce themselves, and morale suffers because of it. I think it's important on a community level for the perception within the game to shift more to an equal footing based on a player's playskill where everyone has the same chance and same class availability.
This idea would take nothing away from any realm, and would not require any adjustments to any class, but would add a new level of flavor and options to established players, while balancing the realms against one another in RvR combat. I feel the concept of 3 realms is very important to the game, and I enjoy the RvR aspects of DAoC, especially when coupled with the PvE "safe" areas to just go and have fun with friends without the constant threat of harassment. I also like that in DAoC you cannot verbally harass the other realms you come into contact with. To me, all of these are the greatest tenants of DAoC and why it's such a fun game to play and enjoy. I do like the idea that on Mordred players can choose from any realm, but I think think the fundamental lack of realms or safety, along with the harassment aspects are a MAJOR turn-off for most people, and that is why Mordred didn't work. There has to be a balance between RvR and PvE, and in the standard servers, there also needs to be an absolute balance in RvR as well. I see this as being a fundamental and profound difference from what's been done in the game thusfar. Realm inter-balance while maintaining realm distinctions.
Section II: High Level Obstacles
--------------------------------
The biggest obstacles I see would be in the form of quest re-assignments for the defector classes in different realms.
Trainers would be the single-biggest thing. But using Midgard as an example, my idea would involve something like 2 "tunnel areas" in the Vale of Mularn, 1 containing Hibernian class trainers and merchants, and another Midgard. These trainers would cover all the base and specialized classes, and be a "one-stop shopping" area for foreign realm sympathizers. Located nearby the Aegirhamn portal, this underground area could be populated with some other NPC "refugees" and perhaps a non-useable "display-only" portal could exist supposedly leading back to the home realm where they all come from.
Defector characters could start in this portal area at level 1 of their base class. Since this character type option is only available as a "reward class" for players who already have level 50 characters, it should not be a problem if they don't start right in the "killing field" area, and this method would add more of an immersive feel to the concept.
The majority of quests could be simplified considerably by simply the allowance that "you're not in your home realm - we don't have that here", especially if the RoG item tables were expanded to include all 3 realm type drops. It would be difficult at first, but perhaps the RoG tables could be addressed quickly and easily a few days ahead of time to give items time to enter the game. However, these are realm defectors, life shouldn't be a cake-walk for them - especially early on, and with NPC vendor merchants in their refugee tunnels, and player-craftable items, the only things missing would be specific mob drops and quest gear, which could be added from other realms as allowable and specific items could be added to drop tables of equivalent mobs in all realms.
Things like epic quest armors could probably be done easily enough by allowing the classes to use existing epic quests for their realms and rewarding their class the correct quest armor just as anyone else.
This would involve programming time, but I see it as a very creative and innovative way to completely address class imbalances issues and perception realm to realm, while giving long-time players new options for more varied play in their existing player community, and hopefully taking a big step to strengthen player-community cohesion as a whole.
Thank you,
The "original" Cicero
Now: Blodsteinn/Blods/Kwesatz/Cicc/Argort/Poppado.
Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan.
Now: Blodsteinn/Blods/Kwesatz/Cicc/Argort/Poppado.
Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan.